{"blocks":[{"key":"93abi","text":" 本文啰嗦，篇幅很长，楼主作为infj话很多，没有intp那么精简。结论是荣格为infj，主要证据集中在4，篇幅太长懒得看，只想要看重点的请往下拉到4，而1和2和3主要为反驳荣格为intp的依据。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"9k220","text":" 接受相反观点和讨论，但绝不接受不给出有明确原因和有力证据，而只有只言片语和主观臆断的批判。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"3k82k","text":"1、对于某楼里荣格是什么类型，楼主给出的结论是intp，理由是迈尔斯的一段话+凯尔西对nt和nf的划分。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":52,"style":"BOLD"}],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"dkpm1","text":" 然而，迈尔斯和凯尔西对荣格的类型持有异议，前者认为他是intp，后者认为他是infj。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"18ee6","text":" 如果楼主同时采用这两人的意见，代表着同时认可这二人的观点。那么请问该楼主能否保持逻辑一致，承认两人对荣格的类型判断存在冲突？并给出一定的证据，证明你为什么选择前者而不选择后者，但转头又去引用后者的另一结论？如果你认为前者的更有道理，那么依据是什么？如果你认为后者的比较没有道理，那么为什么又去援引她的nt和nf的划分？","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"59s4b","text":"2、nt和nf的划分不代表具体个人发展类型的划分，只借助nt是理性主义者，nf是理想主义者，就从而得出前者更符合荣格，并没有什么道理。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":67,"style":"BOLD"}],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"2aj0i","text":" infj里有成堆的思想家和科学家，就好像intp里也出了成堆的文学家和艺术家，这根本是两码事。另外，infj作为ni使用者，本身就会沉浸在概念，思维，观念，系统当中，事实上infj中就算是文人和艺术家，也和infp差很远：他们很少停留在单纯的理想或者感受里面，而是充满了思辨与探索，隐喻和追问，这并不罕见，任何读过陀思妥耶夫斯基和托尔斯泰的人都会感受到他们无处不在的思索和辩论。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"2rdsp","text":" 其次，请问该楼主怎么知道荣格本人没有理想主义的一面？又怎么知道理性主义者们没有理想主义和浪漫主义的一面呢？intj的马克思和尼采的理想主义和浪漫色彩都要涌出来了，黑格尔在自己的小逻辑序言里面就在写人类某些事业的伟大和崇高，康德最出名的名言就是仰望头顶的星空和始终烙印在心头的道德律，这些理性主义者的感性面向和理想面向照样浓厚的不得了，而荣格本人的理想主义情结则同样强烈，这主要体现在他反对实证，认同科学又批判科学，关怀人的内心解放，消弭人和思想之间的冲突的一面（fe的典型功能，消弭冲突，制造和谐，放低个人情绪感受，理解不同观点的人的合理缘由）：","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"emb36","text":" （援引外网） Though difficult to prove unequivocally, It is my assertion that Jung was actually an INFJ rather than an INTJ. The most compelling reason for this, in my view, is Jung’s ineluctable attraction to religion and spirituality. While he was no stranger to scientific thought, Jung consistently reiterated his belief that attempts at pure objectivity, hyperrationality, and scientism had left humanity in a rather disenchanted and dismal state. So rather than endorsing the scientific salvation narrative, Jung turned to religion and psychology. He felt that the overarching problem in his psychiatric clientele was a lack of purpose and meaning in life. For the vast majority of individuals, Jung believed that a religious solution was essential for restoring their psychological health and vitality.虽然很难明确地证明，但我断言容格实际上是一个INFJ而不是INTJ。在我看来，最令人信服的原因是容格对宗教和灵性的不可避免的吸引力。虽然荣格对科学思想并不陌生，但他一再重申他的信念，即纯粹的客观性、超理性和科学主义的企图已使人类处于一种相当不抱幻想和阴郁的状态。因此，容格没有支持科学救赎的叙述，而是转向了宗教和心理学。他觉得他的精神病人面临的最大问题是缺乏生活的目标和意义。对于绝大多数人来说，容格认为宗教的解决方案对于恢复他们的心理健康和活力至关重要。While it would be unfair to suggest that INTJs are not religious or interested in spiritual matters, for Jung, these were matters of ultimate importance. If Jung had been a strong thinking type, it seems likely that his penetrating intellect would have led him to study mathematics, the sciences, or philosophy. Instead, he opted to devote the majority of his efforts toward humanistic and religious topics, those which are most commonly embraced by feeling types. Even a cursory exploration of career demographics suggest that religious vocations are of marked and frequent interest to INFJs, while falling lower on the priority list for INTJs. It is also worth noting Jung’s regular use of “art therapy,” both personally as well as with his clients, which is certainly consistent with an INFJ designation.虽然说INTJs对宗教不感兴趣或对精神事务不感兴趣是不公平的，但对容格来说，这些都是极其重要的事情。如果荣格是一种思维能力（ti，即intp）很强的人，那么他敏锐的才智很可能会引导他学习数学、科学或哲学。相反，他选择将自己的大部分精力投入到人文主义和宗教主题上，这些主题是情感类型最普遍接受的。即便是对职业人口的粗略调查也表明，INFJs对宗教职业有着明显而频繁的兴趣，而INTJs对宗教职业的兴趣则相对较低。同样值得注意的是，Jung经常使用“艺术治疗”，无论是对他个人还是对他的客户，这肯定与INFJ的名称一致。（我自己吐槽一下，在日本的荣格研究大多都导向了神话和童话研究，而在西方，荣格的那一套研究很多都被占星术和通灵师拿去了。荣格在心理学的遗产，更多的和人文学科而非科学学科挂钩）","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"605r3","text":" 再次，intp强于si而弱于se，si关注细节，崇尚朴实和怀旧的感觉氛围。se关注质感，崇尚华丽炫目，瑰丽张扬的视觉效果。而inj在写作的时候，出于se，往往会流露出刻意卖弄文字瑰丽的倾向，同时关注文字所营造的视觉效果。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"fnacd","text":"（源自外网）Considering the visual nature of Ni, it is no surprise that many INJs are highly sensitive to beauty—visual, metaphorical, or otherwise. French philosopher and INTJ Jean Paul Sartre confessed: “I’m only a desire for beauty.” Another INTJ, Frederich Nietzsche, wrote that “life is only valuable as an aesthetic phenomenon.” What seems to be of great irony here is the fact that, at least superficially, INJs seem to be valuing aesthetics in a way similar to their typological opposites, ESPs. The apparent reason for this is that INJs and ESPs use Se as part of their functional stack. The difference is that ESPs use Se more consciously, while INJs do so more unconsciously. This explains why INJs, the most otherworldly and abstract types, are often perplexed by their felt need to create beauty and immerse themselves in beautiful surroundings. This represents a common point of difference between INFJs and INFPs. Namely, INFJs tend to have far more refined, sophisticated, and exquisite tastes than INFPs, for whom Sensing is introverted (Si).考虑到Ni的视觉特性，很多INJs对视觉、隐喻或其他的美高度敏感就不足为奇了。法国哲学家、INTJ 让·保罗·萨特承认:“我只是渴望美丽。另一位INTJ学者尼采写道，“生命只有作为一种美学现象才有价值。”最具讽刺意味的是，至少从表面上看，injs似乎在以一种与他们的类型相反的方式来看待美学，这样做的明显原因是，INJs和ESPs都使用Se作为其功能维度的一部分。不同之处在于，esp更有意识地使用Se，而INJs则无意识地使用Se。这就解释了为什么那些最超凡脱俗、最抽象的injs，常常被他们创造美丽、沉浸在美丽环境中的需求所迷惑,这代表了INFJs和INFPs之间的一个普遍差异。也就是说，infj们往往比infp们有更精致、更复杂、更精致的品味，而对于infps来说，感觉是内向的(Si)，（故而不具备这种特质）。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"1ib2l","text":"以下是荣格自己制作的配合红书文字的插图部分：","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"1f7pj","text":" ","type":"atomic","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":1,"key":0}],"data":{}},{"key":"1a1b0","text":"","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"cd9s","text":" ","type":"atomic","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":1,"key":1}],"data":{}},{"key":"63fj6","text":"","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"5m7dq","text":" ","type":"atomic","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":1,"key":2}],"data":{}},{"key":"44c5o","text":"","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"853qh","text":"至于红书的文字有多文学化，多瑰丽出彩，多像个巫师，神棍和预言家，以及里面充斥着的对人类现有理智的批判，反思，对远古智慧和无明直觉的惊异，可以自己去翻看。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"ckled","text":"","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"ac33v","text":"3、该楼回复中有人紧抓着荣格认为自己是ti使用者不放，并借此认定他是intp。但请问他强大的ni是怎么回事？如果他有ni和ti，那么他只能是istp或者infj。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[{"offset":0,"length":81,"style":"BOLD"}],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"16j8a","text":" 然而，第一，infj里有成堆的ti发达者，很多逻辑学家，数理逻辑研究者，建筑家都是infj。连阿加莎克里斯蒂这样思维缜密的推理小说作者，斯宾诺莎这样写书完全按照几何和数学方式来写作的人物，都是ti非常强大的infj。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"b7fec","text":" 第二，根据荣格自己的话，他认为一个人的主导功能是不断流动的。一旦他这个假设成立，那么他对自己的判断：即早年是istp，中年是intp，晚年是infj的推断，就是可成立的。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"2offp","text":"因为不可否定的是，荣格的ni已经多的快要涌出来了：","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"eco25","text":" 1）无论是潜意识的梦境，幻想，直觉，隐喻，对宗教和占卜的痴迷和沉浸，都是他的ni的直观体现。","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"91kll","text":" 2）荣格是基督教的荣誉成员，获得过教会的封授，暂且不说intp对科学的执着，也不讨论ne使用者的质疑精神，荣格自幼年就不认同宗教的很多既定观念，但是后期却一直在寻找方法来弄清宗教到底在传述和表达什么，并且深深沉迷其中，用自己的隐喻笔法来道出宗教和神话所要传达的抽象境界，这种与宗教间若即若离的亲密关联，难道不是ni使用者作为宗教创始人，巫师和先知，神秘主义者而绝非信徒或传道者的最好体现？","type":"unstyled","depth":0,"inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"4lfj","text":" 3）荣格自己在访谈和会议中多次承认自己有ni，一度也纠正了自己曾经的观念，表示自己的ni后来比ti更为优势。该楼里有人回复，说我的视频可能涉及造假，我真的很想吐槽，一个1959年知名的bbc采访视频，流传了这么多年的公开影像资料，一个可以去向官方求证的资料——谁有动机去造假？谁有成本去造假？就算造假，这么多年没有人指正？就算造假，视频中那个操着口音的老年荣格是化妆还是易容还是当代ps进去的？地址如下，可以随时翻墙去看：https://www.youtube.
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